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Interview with A.Taylor taken during Corgisiada-2007, Poland

Q: Ok. First of all about the teeth… teeth.

Q: Maybe first about the kennel.

Q: Ah, yes, about the kennel.

Q: Tell us briefly your story with the Corgis.

Q: At the beginning something about the kennel, and a little story about you.

Kevin: Well, you started a long time before me, didn’t you?

Allan: Well, I had my first Pembroke Corgi in 1963, and I showed for a while. And I had bits of bad luck with breeding, you know seizures and losing pups. And in 1973 I went into partnership with Idris Jones at Belroyd, and the first dog that we owned in partnership was Belroyd Dateline, and he won 10 CCs and was Best in Show of the Welsh Corgi League, and he was the kennel’s first group winner. That was in 1978. Then, we bought a bitch to mate to him, Elden Manor Amber of Belroyd, and we mated it to him, a couple of times, and she missed, and we found out that he had a very low sperm count. So we then mated to Star of Axikilles [?], and that produced two champions, Firebird and Firecrest. And then Firebird was the mother of Lovebird, who won 12 working groups, 30 CCs, the working group at Crufts in 1973 or 74. She had four all-breed Best in Shows, no other Pembroke’s ever done that in England. The UK, rather, not England. And Firebird is also then the mother of Champion Bowrydeckity [?] and Champion Balldyrick Iperoin [?]. The next important one was Champion Belroyd Jacana, and she was out of Belroyd Gaybird, who was live bred to both Dusky Night and Crown Prince. And for a first litter we mated her to Champion Jamaraminate [?] again, and she had, I think it was five, and three of them were fluffs ? including the only bitch. So the next time we bred her, we decided that we must get a fluff freed up. And that was Champion Blands Sonny Boy, and that litter produced Champion Jakarta and American Champion Brother Jack Tour, and of course when she was mated to Henneman Royal Command, that produced Nut Cracker and his sister Nestle. And then of course Nutcracker won. Jacana won nothing, 18 tickets, and she won a group, and that’s all. Nutcracker won 32 tickets, and he won the working group at Crufts in 1991, the [ ] teaming unit [?]. He also won the Pedigree Pet Foods Veterans Stakes, I think that was the same year, and he won the first, I think, Welsh Contested Champion, and then he sired 14 British Champions, which was, of course, a record... no, 15 I think it is, which broke the record of Roosevelt Red Dragon had had for about 50 years. And then he added a couple of sons that were really good sires. Champion Belroyd the Red Grouse, he sired 12 British Champions, and Champion Blands Limited Edition of Belroyd, he sired 6, and he also sired Champion Belroyd Black Cap, who sired 2 Champions, but they were both Best of Breed at Crufts. Champion Belroyd Early Rose and Champion Pemcader Betty Boop. I can’t… what year did we, I can’t think…

Kevin: When we teamed up, yeah… 1993-94?

Allan: Yeah, cause Kevin and Steven couldn’t keep many dogs. And we had a couple in partnership, didn’t we?

Kevin: Yeah, we started mating bitches more or less at the same time, and we found ourselves competing against each other, and it sort of defeated the object, really, so… We sort of…

Allan: I won’t tell you what really forced it, in the end [laughs]. We won’t please get into that! There was some kind person, who was trying to cause trouble, and it just went in the wrong way. And so we put all the dogs into partnership.

Kevin: I mean, Steven and I had had our first one in 1976, which I had from Patty Dade, who was a longstanding friend of Alan and Idris’s, and she was by Champion Gillburn Supermack, a bitch from an old breeder called Samply Jones, St. John’s, Skylark…

Allan: and then we got Belroyd behind it…

Kevin: Yeah, and we sort of started from there, but the bitch I kept from that litter didn’t produce anything from us, and we repeated the mating and we didn’t get anything good from that litter at all. And then when the bitch had her litter, we nearly lost her and we lost all the puppies, so we decided to stop, and start up again with a completely new line. So we went to Mary Winsone, Cordach, and she’d got a litter of black-headed tri-colours [laughs], so that’s where my thing of black-headed tri-colours comes in on. And that was by Connie’s dog, Ballcarrick Queen’s Master, out of Sheshe, which was a Ballcarrick bitch that Mary had bought from Connie Lewis, and really all of Steven and my dogs sort of descend from there. It’s like Allan said, her first home-bred Champion was Betty Boop, which, well we hadn’t teamed up Allan and Idris at the time, but she was Best of Breed at Crufts under Allan.

Allan: Oh, that sounds good.

Kevin: It does, doesn’t it!

Allan: Yeah! [laugh]

Kevin: Well it’s true! It did. That’s how it was, but prior to that we’d bought in…

Allan: That was 1976, that was, wasn’t it?

Kevin: Yeah. We’d bought in a bitch from South Africa, imported her from Dave and Gwen Staughton in Johannesburg, and she became the breed’s first ever imported Champion. I mean there’s been a lot since, but she was the first ever dog or bitch…

Allan: And that was quite unusual, wouldn’t you say that…

Kevin: Yeah, I mean I think people were expecting things maybe from America, or maybe Australia, but, and some of the old breeders in the past had tried and never succeeded in making anything of it, but she was the first one ever. She only ever had one litter, nine bitches and one dog. We kept the dog and he was mated up.

Allan: They were by the Redgraves, he was by Redgraves…

Kevin: Champion Pencarter Tribesman, and then a sister from the same litter went back to South Africa and she gained her title too…

Allan: And then Betty Boop was another Dick Dastardly, who was also by Redgraves, and then you bred that bitch that you had off us…

[in unison] By Fred Flintstone. Kevin: who was Betty Boop’s little brother, he gained two tickets and a reserve, but never gained his title.

Allan: And Betty Boop made it to Redgraves, she produced Cindy Birdsong, and she is, of all of the youngsters we’ve got now, she is either the grandmother or the great-grandmother.

Kevin: Yeah, that was two red-and-whites mated together, and four tri-colour puppies [laughs].

Allan: So, then we introduced Cardigans.

Kevin: Yeah, which is sort of by the backdoor, really, because…

Kevin: [Sandra] died and Joy, her mother, wanted to continue with Sandra’s wishes, so the bitch that she had imported from Denmark, from [Kim], came over but Joy felt she couldn’t do her justice in the ring, so she asked me if I would handle her.

Allan: Well, it was a joy to, because she was such a nice bitch wasn’t she?!

Kevin: A beautiful, beautiful shade/shape, beautiful type [Allan: we all loved her] and everything, had everything just like you wanted. And her first show came around, and Joy couldn’t bring her to the show because she had to go to hospital that day, and another exhibit had brought her up, and I hadn’t handled her properly prior to that, so I just took her off around the show, and then groomed her up, and took her in and she won her class, and I took her back in for the Challenge, and she won her first CC, first time out…

Allan: Was that under Stuart?

Kevin: No, it was Paddy, [in unison] Paddy of the Three Counties.

Allan: Yeah, I knew she would like that.

Kevin: I think I showed her seven times straight off, and she had five CCs and a group placing…

Allan: Well, I gave her a third ticket …

Kevin: You gave her a third…

Allan: And she was fourth in the group.

Kevin: Yeah, both Corgis that day were third and fourth, [in unison] that was Shooting Star. She was third, and we were fourth. Then Joy decided to mate Helga again, but this time to Nobleman…

Allan: No, you haven’t said about Negga

Kevin: Oh, sorry… The first litter was by Antoch 007, and she said if we wanted a puppy we could go and have a look, so we went down and they were three or four days old? Christmas…

Allan: Weeks, I think

Kevin: Three weeks? Yeah, could be. We just looked at these puppies in the nest box sort of thing, and Helga was laying with, I don’t know, it was about six or seven in the litter, with the bulk of these puppies and then just on her own was this one brindle & white puppy just lying there, and we just looked at these puppies and looked at her, and said that’s the one we want. And she became our first Cardigan Champion.

Allan: She got made up at Crufts.

Kevin: She was quite exceptional, because she went to ten championship shows as a puppy, and she won nine, including two CCs and two reserves by the time she was 12 months old, which is unheard of, really, for Cardigans.

Allan: She was made up before she was 18 months.

Kevin: And then Joy used the same mother on a second litter, but she used Kim’s Nobleman. And we had a bit of a disaster whelping. Joy ended up having to hand feed the whole litter…

Allan: She didn’t lose any, did she?

Kevin: No, she didn’t. No, bless her. Again she very kindly let us have the pick of the litter, and we took a Brindle-point tri-colour, dog this time, and again he made up very quickly…

Allan: He had two tickets in a week, didn’t he?

Kevin: Yes, and soon after gaining his title [Allan: He got Best of Breed at Crufts] we’d made arrangements to bring a dog in from Australia, to improve the gene pool, and the lady that we had Australian Grand Champion Bethwyn Music Man from asked to help their breeding program, if we would allow Brennen to go out to Australia, so we did a swap. Arthur came in from Australia and Brennen went out there, and that little bit’s history really. Brennen’s sired, I think his total at the moment is five or six Australian champions, and he gained his Australian title and he also won the group at the Melbourne International All-Breeds Show. But he’s back home in the UK now. And Arthur’s gone back to Australia. Arthur has sired two English Champions, of we’ve got a young dog. He’s this year’s top Cardigan.

Allan: He’s got two group placings, a second and a fourth.

Kevin: And I think he’s got eight CCs now…

Allan: Yeah, seven this year.

Kevin: That mating that produced Jazz and his sister, Jigsaw, was repeated a little while ago, and we’ve now got a young blue merle bitch, who is very outgoing just like her brother, to say the least. But she’s only been shown once, she was best puppy bitch at her first show, so we were pleased about that. So we’re just sort of pushing on, really, with the Cardigans as well now.

Allan: And we’ve won 298 CCs.

Q: And you remember all your dogs? As far as I understood.

Allan: Yes.

Q: All your dogs?

Allan: Yes.

Allan: I mean, I’ve missed some out, obviously, because you don’t want all of it [laughter]. You haven’t got enough time [laughter]. How many days can we sit here?

Q: How many dogs do you have now? And where do they live: in the kennel or at home?

Allan: I’ve got 11 Pembrokes and two Cardigans down in Wales. And two poodles and a Dachshund, which Kevin loves.

Kevin: I do not! [laughter] But we’ve got five…

Allan: No, we’ve got four dogs that live in the house.

Q: Yes, and the others in the kennel?

Allan: Yes, you can’t have them all [in the house].

Q: Do you change dogs from the kennel to the house, or no?

[In unison] No.

Kevin: And, then, I have five Cardigans, but shortly, some months ago, we all bought a much larger house, with a lot more ground, and Steven and I moved in…

Allan: Last May.

Kevin: Yes, May, May it was. But, unfortunately, since then Steven has died, but Allen and Idris are moving in [We’re moving in, in two weeks time]. So we’ve got two separate houses, but in one we’ve had a brand new kennel block built.

Allan: And we’re having a dog [room]… The two houses are joined by a double garage, which is going to be a dog room. So it should be very nice.

Q: Do you wash the dogs, even if you are not going to show the dogs?

Allan: Sometimes, yeah.

Q: From time to time

Kevin: Yeah.

Q: Do you wash the dogs before the show, in any case?

Kevin: Only if they really need it, or if they’re coat is…

Allan: I find it’s best, usually, to wash them not the day before a show, but the day before that. And I don’t always wash them all over, but I always wash the chest, and if they’ve got dirt on the neck, and underneath and the trousers. But I don’t wash them all over, unless we’ve had a lot of bad weather, say, and they’ve been getting wet, and then, of course, they go all oily, don’t they, the coats. So they’ve got to be done then. But I don’t think you need to wash them every time. If you’ve got decent weather. Just the bits that hit the ground, and to make sure that white is white.

Q: Do you use dog cosmetics for grooming? Powder?

Allan: We aren’t supposed to use powder, no, but…

Kevin: Well, you can use powder, in theory, as long as you brush it out afterwards [like I use baking powder], but the rules state that you should only use water for grooming. And you can actually, Allan and I have seen it done with some of the Americans, where they can take a dog, in fact they [?] one back at Belroyd many years ago now, but actually to take a dog that was virtually right out of coat, just by using water and different grooming techniques, you can actually build that coat back up, make it look reasonable, not perfect, but reasonable.

Allan: You see, these people here putting all these mousses and sprays on, that makes the coat go sticky in there, so you have got to keep washing them more. I don’t think that’s a particularly good idea. The only thing I ever spray on the coats now before I go in the ring is that no-rinse shampoo, and then wipe it up with a towel.

Q: Ok.

Allan: Unless, I think we [?]… But I don’t usually use any of what I call “that muck”. [laughs]

Kevin: Sometimes you can use a finishing spray on that will just, when you then put a velvet glove or a bit of suede over that, and it just…

Allan: But you should see the mousse that goes into some of them. Sonia, jeez!!

Q: What can you say about the dogs in the show today? Which do you prefer, or not? What is the level of the dogs that you saw today?

Allan: What in Britain?

Q: Here, today, at this show.

Allan: Oh, I thought it was pretty good. Yeah.

Q: Which were the best today, the Cardigans or the Pembrokes?

Allan: I didn’t think there was very much between them.

Q: Both were nice…

Allan: One of the worst things Ira, well I thought, was the lack of grooming and sort of dogs that could do with a bit of a good wash. I mean, the older ones you showed looked well, and your dog, unlike these dogs did.

Kevin: The biggest problem seems to be the nails. I noticed sitting right in front of the table that, the Cardigans especially, they had really long nails, and that just ruins the shape of the foot.

Allan: And some of them, see they cut them off with dow clippers, while we use a grinder.

Q: Grinder? Oh, I understand.

Allan: So you can get real good finish.

Kevin: Cause you can get a round the nail, and take them down to…

Q: Yes. We have got the same at Krafts.

Allan: Drennals, they’re called.

Kevin: Yeah.

Allan: They’re really for making models, aren’t they?

Kevin: Yes, they are. But you get such a… It’s the attention to detail, because it gets them right down, and you can take them in line with the foot, and it just makes a much nicer presentation.

Q: And how often do you use the grinder? From time to time?

Allan: I try to use do the dogs now every week.

Q: Every week?

Allan: I try to.

Kevin: To keep them down.

Q: On all the dogs?

Allan: Yeah, I even use the grinder on the dogs that I don’t show, because it’s still pleasing to your eye.

Kevin: It’s attention to detail. I mean, you’re trying to present the dog, in the short space of time that you have, the very best that you can do. And there is nothing worse than, especially with Corgis being table dogs, the first thing when you walk around in front of them you see these feet and these horrible nails. You don’t want that.

Allan: No. It is off-putting.

Q: Ok. What do you think about the absence of P1 and WP1?

Allan: I don’t know what that is. [laughter]

Kevin: Me neither.

Q: It’s a question about the teeth. Should there be a full set of teeth, or it is not very [important]?

Allan: I doesn’t worry me. I never look anyway.

Kevin: No, I mean as long as the bite’s correct, you know, because dog’s have accidents, and teeth come out, for whatever reason.

Allan: I think they probably think that it’s hereditary. That they are born with eight of them.

Kevin: Yeah, maybe.

Allan: That’s what that is, isn’t it?

[in unison] yes.

Q: But it would be better if there is a full set of teeth?

Allan: Oh yes, we always want everything perfect, don’t you? But I’d rather have a dog with a missing pre-molar than turn in the foot, because you don’t really see it.

Kevin: No, you don’t, do you? Sometimes you get... The Pembrokes went through a little spell where the jaw was very narrow, and you got crowding of teeth, one sitting behind the other. That doesn’t look to good.

Allan: They’re crooked. I think perhaps they have… one thing that the Pembrokes, certainly back home, the teeth have got smaller. I do think that.

Q: And the second question is about fluffy. What do you think about fluffy? Should the breeding of fluffy bitch be advised, or does it just happen sometimes?

Allan: Breeding from a fluffy bitch?

Q: Yes.

Allan: Well, the only reason that I would do it… Because, I mean, if you mate it to a fluff-free dog you won’t get fluffs. I don’t think very many of the litter would pick up the gene. I’m not into genetics, but I would only breed from a fluffy bitch if I thought it was a line she was going to lose. And there was nothing else I could do about it. That’s what I’ve always thought about that.

Q: Ok, thank you. Have you met a dog in your life that was close to the ideal standard, and could you tell us the name of the dog?

Allan: The dog that I think is most…

Kevin: Adheres to the breed standard.

Allan: Well, of our own dogs, Nut Cracker is the one. He’s the one. Well, I think he’s the best we ever bred. I’m just trying to think about somebody else’s…

Kevin: One of Peggy’s?

Allan: I always thought that he was a lovely dog, Penland Ambassador.

Kevin: Yes, he was. Yes, I was in the ring with him. Yeah, I remember.

Allan: And there was a beautiful bitch in America, called Pennington Glory Hand, owned by Sidney Haney, who was by a very famous dog in the States called Champion Martin Dowle Butter Brittle, who sired a lot, who absolutely took the quality of the dogs in the States to another level. We went to San Diego, didn’t we [Kevin: yes, for the National] in 1975, and they had the Southern California specialty before it, and I judged that, or part of it, and the Champions class with these lovely sons of Champion Penwest Town and Country, it was by Butter Brittle. I mean you just couldn’t believe the quality of them, six or seven of these, and it was just like splitting hairs. You could have brought them all up. But it’s not like that there now.

Q: Is it true that the standard of the Pembroke Welsh Corgi has changed over the last 10-20 years?

Allan: It’s changed, it’s changed.

Q: The preferable type of dog…

Allan: Oh, yes. They’re lower now, they’ve got more coat.

Q: More coat, shorter legs, yes?

Allan: Well, not necessarily shorter legs. They’ve got deeper chests.

Q: Richer coats and deeper chests.

Allan: Yes, they’ve certainly got more coat.

Q: What about their temperament?

Allan: The temperaments are fine. I had three bitches today try to bite me.

Q: It’s impossible.

Kevin: Which you don’t normally get any signs of back home…

Allan: I mean, if it would have been at home I would have just said take it home.

Q: And what about the size of Pembroke Welsh Corgi now? It’s a big question in Russia right now, size.

Kevin: Well, it did go through a spell where, the last ten years or so, because we have Chris Blanche winning so much with Shooting Star. When she was in the group ring, I mean she’s a very nice bitch, I’ve judged her a couple of times, but when she was in the group ring the judges could see that she was a Pembroke, and she stood out, because she was a true showgirl and nothing ever fazed her. But when you then brought her back into the breed ring, she was really a big bitch compared to some of them that were around. And then people started thinking that, since she was winning in the groups, that that was what they should start breeding for, instead of keeping in mind what the breed standard calls for. People see, and get pulled by, what’s winning, so they tend to think, oh right, we need to breed something that big to be able to win. And you don’t, you must keep to the breed standard, and try to keep the best from the resulting puppies.

Q: It is possible that the breed standard will be changed in the future? The size of the dogs?

Allan: Well, not that I can see at the moment. Oh, no, they won’t change the size of it. Because if they put the size up, then it’s going to go up even more. I mean, I’d be totally against putting the size up. Even if the dogs are oversized for what the standard calls for, because you put it higher, and they get bigger.

Q: What are your plans concerning size, what size do you prefer in your kennel?

Allan: I like pretty bitches, with loads of quality, and I like the males to look like males, but also to have lovely quality. And I prefer them ? not big. But if I’ve got something that I thought was really good, and it was bigger than I really liked, I would still keep it. I think you’ve got to be sensible about things like that.

Kevin: A lot of it is down to the quality side of things. You can have sometimes a dog or a bitch that maybe is larger than you would prefer, but if the quality is there, that is the thing you have to aim for.

Allan: It is quality, really, yeah. If you start into a litter, and you thought the best one was a dog or a bitch that was bigger than you really preferred, and you decided to keep one just because you thought it was the best size, and it wasn’t as good, then I think that that is…

Kevin: Well, it just defeats the object. It’s the same as having a litter of puppies and four of them are red-and-whites, and you’ve got a tri-colour there, and you like the tri-colour, but the best is a red one. What’s the point in keeping it just for the colour? You should be picking the best possible one, nearest to the standard, and to take your kennel on further. You shouldn’t be swayed by colours.

Allan: You shouldn’t pick puppies on colour, that’s true.

Q: What do you think about the ban on the docking of tails? What are the prospects for the docked tail in Great Britain? What about the situation with the docking of tails in the UK?

Allan: Well, they banned that on 6th of April.

Kevin: This year. Gone. You can no longer dock.

Q: Which do you prefer: docked tails?

Kevin: Docked.

Allan: Definitely, definitely.

Q: What are you going to do?

Allan: What are we going to do? I’m not breeding any more Pembrokes.

Q: Really?

Allan: Nope. When I see them with the tails today, I thought I’ve, we’ve, made the right decision. Apart from the fact that I did like that dog [Puppy Zimmler?]

Kevin: I thought he was, the quality there, again, I could live with him with the tail, because his other virtues really outweighed the fact that he had the tail.

Allan: I couldn’t believe my eyes when that stood there.

Kevin: No. He was nice.

Allan: His bone, his front…

Kevin: When he stood on the table, I just looked at him and I thought that is a front to die for, for such a baby. He just looked so nice, and I wondered how you would cope with the tail business, but…

Allan: Did you know I liked him?

Kevin: I could see you liked him. I know your body language. I know what you do.

Allan: I think people can tell when I really like one, and I did him.

Q: If the tail is undocked, it is possible that the tail will be held up like a ring?

Allan: The tendency is that it’s going to go up, isn’t it? Because, see, the Pembroke was bred to have a squared-off croup, whereas a Cardigan isn’t. Well, I guess some of the Cardigans are. I seen them… Years ago, when did they [?] in Norway? That was 15-16 years ago!

Kevin: Yes, it was a long time ago. I think we had our first dog from Peggy Gamble in 1992 or something.

Allan: But I remember judging the Club Show in Norway, I don’t know how many years ago, and there was this beautiful tri-colour bitch that was undocked, and she carried her tail low, and it was totally inoffensive. But it’s just, it shortens the dogs is another thing. You get a tail going, and it just sort of shortens them. It’s not just the tail carriage. It’s the balance. No, I can’t be dealing with them. [laughter]

Q: When you are choosing a winner, what is important in a dog?

Allan: Well, it needs presence. Quality. It also needs to be a good, sound mover.

Kevin: And something that looks as per the breed standard. You have to bear that in mind at all times. We all interpret things very, very differently. You can give half a dozen people the same standard, and give them a ring full of dogs, and probably half of them will choose a different one anyway. Because you have your own visions of what should be. I’m, perhaps, more of a movement person. I don’t know really…

Allan: Not as much as you were.

Kevin: No. You tend to sort of focus [on certain things]. Some people, I know we’ve said it before, shouldn’t choose colour, some people won’t put up a tri-colour or…

Allan: Some people won’t even look at black-headed tri-colours, although that is totally and utterly ridiculous.

Q: What colour do you prefer, for example?

Kevin: I don’t mind any. It was something that another exhibitor said to me many, many years ago, when I was just starting out judging… They presented me with a hypothetical situation: if I had two dogs in the ring at the same time that looked equal in most manners, but you have one red-and-white and one tri-colour, which one would I put up? And I said the red-and-white. Well, why? Because I prefer red-and-whites. But you should never do that, as we said before, you don’t base it on colour. Also, having had a black-headed tri-colour, now I can personally appreciate that, yes, they may not stand out quite as much as a red-headed tri-colour or a red-and-white, but you have to look into them that much more to see the quality there. You know, there have been some nice black-headed tri-colours.

Allan: Jacana, you know that black bird, she was black-headed.

Q: Is presentation in the ring important?

Allan: I think it is important, yes. I wouldn’t put in there a dog that isn’t any good up over… that was well-presented, over one that was a really good dog that lacked grooming. Unless it was absolutely a wreck. It’s like showmanship. I don’t think you should necessarily just put up the ones that show the best.

Kevin: I think this is what defines a lot of the old ramblers in the UK. As long as it looks like a Corgi, they’ll put it up if it stands there like a little statue. And that isn’t always the best one that’s there.

Allan: I mean, anyone can judge the best shower [showman].

Q: Now the last question. About breeding. Do you have two types of dogs in your kennel? One part of the dogs especially for show, and others that do not show?

Allan and Kevin: No.

Allan: We’ve always believed that if it’s not good enough to show, don’t breed from it.

Q: Now this is absolutely the last question. [laughter]

Kevin: Typical woman. [more laughter]

Q: What do you think about light-coloured eyes? And which colour is preferable?

Allan and Kevin: Dark.

Q: If a dog has a light coat…

Allan: Well, you don’t want light eyes, do you, it doesn’t matter what colour the coat is. You want them to blend with the coat.

Kevin: That’s what the standard calls for. It should blend with the colour of the coat. It would be awful if you had a tri-colour with these pale, yellow-orange eyes, because it just hits you right away.

Allan: It’s like headlamps.

Q: If a pale dog has dark eyes, is that good?

Allan and Kevin: Yes. If its got good pigment.

Kevin: That’s always very difficult to maintain. I was saying to one of the other judges today, we were talking when she came over to look at the Corgis, we got on this same subject. Many years ago Pheffy judged South Wales, and I was trying to think what it was I put on the table at the time. Well, a dog I was showing, it must have been when Mary Winsone had the brother and sister, because I kept coming in second, and the dog I was showing at the time had exceptional dark pigment, and I’ve got the dog on the table, and she just looked at his head, and she just looked at me, and she said “you’ve been very busy with the mascara”, and I said “I suggest you rub your finger over it, because you’ll find that what is there is natural!” [laughter]

Allan: They put my mascara on anyway [laughter].

[conversation after the interview]